00:00.62 Heather Hello Hello Hello Okay, the. 00:02.34 archpodnet All right? Okay, everyone is here. Ah oh this is the this is a continuation of the first recording the ah technology did not work for us. Whoever's editing le um. 00:02.59 Bill White Yeah, it looks like it's all working again. Okay. 00:19.60 archpodnet And and ah so we're we're starting it up again. It might turn off again. We're just we're just going to do our best. So um, Heather is going to kind of continue where she left off in. 00:30.89 Heather Okay. 00:33.28 archpodnet Wherever she feels comfortable and then we'll just go on from there. So Heather wherever you feel good. Just go for it I know. Ah. 00:37.81 Heather Okay, editor please because I'm probably going to repeat some things so please feel free to cut away. Okay, so um, so crmmerm the the peer review process in Crm is different. Um, because it has a different purpose. Um, and the main thing is is that it's to cover the agency and make sure that you know that the report actually does what it's supposed to do. It's looking at what it's supposed to do. And that it's from a regulatory side of things it is ensuring compliance to whatever the regulatory laws are that that the um that the project itself is um that are applicable to the project. So why. You know? and maybe this is specific to California because we have agencies that we work with cities counties that don't have their own archaeologists on staff and so they have no idea what they're looking at when they're reading a report. They don't know if it's correct and um tribes have become more and more involved in. You know, looking at the reports when they when a a project is subject to tribal consultation through a b 52 or sb 18 which have to do with California law. Um, the the tribes are you know they ask for the report they want to know what kind of um. 02:09.11 Heather Ah, you know what kind of study has been done so far. What has been unearthed ah through that study. So it's important to agencies that they make sure that that the report is correct and so you know fifteen years ago I don't think it was this common. It's a lot more common now. So you're seeing peer reviews pop up ah more and more and I'm being asked to do them more and more and and and more of our reports are being peer reviewed which really slows down the process but I wanted to talk in in this podcast about how I think in some ways. Peer reviews are are good but in some ways they've been weaponized and um, they're they're starting to kind of fall away from what what their true intended purpose should be. 02:59.27 archpodnet Right? So bill I See you have a question on that. 03:02.58 Bill White Yeah I you know I have questions about this because it seems like it's completely foreign to me since when I was doing cultural resources I never 1 time met an agency that ever felt like they weren't they weren't able to evaluate you know anything and. 03:15.20 Heather Ah. 03:20.40 Bill White Ah, someone who is doing historical archeology in Arizona this would always be you know a problem when someone who did a ph d on you know archaic ah, um, ah, pre-misissipian archeology in Kansas was the you know, whatever. Um. Ah, air force-based archaeologist and they and you know they had a million questions and comments on the way I evaluated roads or you know how how someone does evaluate a farmstead in Arizona like it just seemed like they they completely didn't they were beyond their ability yet I never heard. Of them saying well perhaps we should kick this out to another company and have someone who's qualified look at what you've already done so this whole thing is is totally new to me and I'm just wondering how come this process came about I mean I've heard articles where they say that there should be a peer review process for Crm reports. 04:13.78 Heather A. 04:16.70 Bill White But of course I've never seen companies say yeah I would love to volunteer and read a 280 page report from someone else like how how has this become a thing. Oh okay. 04:25.63 Heather Well, it's not a volunteer for 1 thing. It's paid. Um the agencies hire another archeologist and of course they charge the applicant for that for that service. Um, and. 04:40.21 Heather You know it's gotten even to the point where there's monitors monitoring monitoring monitoring ah monitors ah companies monitoring monitors. How's that um yes. 04:47.96 Bill White Yeah, well this this sounds totally California Stylele because it's the kind of place it would be like you know what? we really need. We need someone who's you know over the ah bureau of weights and measures. We really need someone monitoring that. So let's put together an ad hoc committee with like. 04:59.12 Heather That exactly. 05:03.47 Bill White You know, firefighters and um, you know construction workers and volunteers and then unemployed unhoused people from the local community to put together a thing to monitor this organization. That's tasked with monitoring all the weights and like this totally sounds like California. So. 05:09.40 Heather Yep. 05:18.00 Heather I I think I think it's ah I think the majority of the main reason why this is occurring is because agencies are trying to cover their butt. Basically um, they're they've become very very adverse to you know, actually taking. Um, taking the main role and in making sure that compliance is um, enacted properly So The more people that they have involved where they hire on experts to make sure it's done properly the um more that it's. Ah, not their fault if it's not done right. 05:56.69 archpodnet Yeah, that's cool Heather you know I'm in Bill's camp in terms of I never really heard about this right? until recently did you notice a time when this came on has it only been the last two years or have you noticed it for a decade you know. 05:57.70 Bill White Yeah. 06:08.67 Heather Um, yeah, it's I It's been the last few years. 06:10.88 Bill White Yeah, was there like some chaotic huge lawsuit where you know an agency just lost its entire budget and had to beg for more from the state because you know someone totally took them to task and they lost and then after that they were like that's it. 06:14.63 archpodnet Yeah. 06:26.52 Bill White You know what we're going to actually review these reports right. 06:26.94 Heather Well, yeah, um, no, the agencies are being Sued. They're being sued by applicants. They're being sued by Tribes. They're being sued by um, activists. So Yes I think that is the the main purpose behind it is. Is the fact that they wanted they want to avoid that and if they um can show that they've done their due diligence and making sure that they have experts from every side looking to make sure it's done properly then um, the onus is is off of them. So or responsibility is off of them. So I think it's just been. You know this influx of of litigious you know activity and um, that has just you know gotten us to this point and you know now we have I think ah you know I do think it's going to start being pulled back. 07:02.42 Bill White You right on and. 07:22.20 Heather Because for a few years. Um, you know, especially during Covid I Saw applicants who are really pushing hard to get through the process quickly and a lot of it had to do with grants monies that were coming in that had a finite amount of time. For them to actually be able to use the to to get the Grant money. Um, and so the applicants were always pushing hard to pushing back on the agencies to make sure that that um the review process happened quickly and so that made I think agencies maybe nervous and they started. Say Okay, well we need to make sure that this is done correctly if you're going to push us in this direction to do this quickly. We need to make sure it's done correctly. So Yeah I think there's lots of different reasons why that has occurred and why peer reviews have started to become more more and more popular and the. The applicants were just willing to throw money at at projects to get them done and so if the agency said okay well we're going to do a peer review and this is going to be. You know your application process going to cost more money Fine Whatever it takes to get it done is what the applicants are saying. Um, applicants meaning developers. Um, but now you know those monies are starting starting to dry up with you know the state of our economy and I do think that maybe it start. It's going to start getting pulled back I don't know how that's goingnna happen because I've already opened up the barn door so to speak. 08:58.35 Heather So. 08:59.29 archpodnet Yeah, and then Heather I think I stepped on your audio because you know I I love the sound of my own voice so much because it's awesome, but ah about how long ago like when did you first notice this. 09:06.70 Heather Um, it is well I've always seen peer reviews but I've seen it an influx in peer reviews probably in the last 2 to 3 years yeah which coincides with covid. 09:17.59 archpodnet Right? Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense right? Are you trying to say this is about money. What. 09:25.20 Heather And now the money that was being flushed into the system. Yeah. C or M. It's always about money. 09:33.53 archpodnet And with that we'll be back in a minute. 09:34.67 Bill White Ah ha.